Sunday, April 29, 2007

Anniversary Socks

I just finished my Anniversary Socks. I really liked this pattern, it was a fun knit. The pattern was easy to memorize, enough that I didn't refer to it much on the second sock.

I used Sophie's Toes yarn, size 1 dpns. More photos on my blog

The color is not so intense in real life.

Some More Embossed Leaves

I'm new to this knitalong, having only received my copy of Favorite Socks last week. My first pair out of the book is Embossed Leaves for my mum for Mother's Day.
Embossed Leaves Socks
They're knit with Fleece Artist Basic Merino (in Aqua) and I love them, so it's a good thing they're too small for my feet, or else I'd be tempted to keep them! I've just finished the gusset decreases, so they'll definitely be ready in time.
I love so many of the patterns in this book that I'll have a lot to keep me busy over the coming months.

Friday, April 27, 2007

Embossed Leaves- Comfy!

I have the first sock finished with the Embossed Leaves pattern. I revised the pattern slightly. It seemed odd to me that the pattern would call for cutting the yarn at the start of the gusset. I just reworked it slightly so I wouldn't have to cut anything until I finished the toe. I have the ribbing of the second sock started, but have put it on hold until I finish a sweater that is almost complete. I'll post information regarding yarn and color when I finish the entire pair.

Thursday, April 26, 2007

Waving Lace: This is fun!

I'm still sailing along on the first sock...I did end up tightening my gauge a little, but continued using the same circular needle. I really like KnitPicks' pointy tips--perfect for working magic loop with Lorna's Laces SS. (There's another photo on my blog.)

My opinion so far? Waving Lace is a wonderful pattern. It's easy to memorize, relaxing, but not boring. Best of all, it's engaging, but not to the degree that I have trouble knitting while watching my favorite BBC mysteries! I can't wait to finish sock #1 so I can slip it on. And because these are a "quick knit," that day will soon arrive :-)

Finished Waving Lace Socks!

I finshed my first pair of Waving Lace socks yesterday.

The yarn is Socks That Rock in Blue Moonstone.

For more details visit my blog.


Wednesday, April 25, 2007

"Anniversary Socks" completed!

I have completed my "Anniversary Socks" by Nancy Bush. These were made from Louet Gems yarn, on 2.5mm Pony Pearl DPNS. Even though they do contain twisted stitches, it was an enjoyable project. The yarn is incredibly soft. It is the first time that I have knit with Louet Gems yarn. I was able to make these socks from 2 skeins. I did shorten the leg to my usual 7" rather than the 9" suggested in the pattern. Other than that, I made no modifications.

Tuesday, April 24, 2007

Casting on...

Hi, all! My name is Hannah. I joined this KAL about a week ago, but needed to finish a gift before I could cast on some "Favorite Socks." Well, I blocked the gift (socks, of course, which you can see on my blog: and immediately cast on the Waving Lace socks...

This photo was taken a couple of days ago. I'm actually much farther along, and will post a new photo soon.

I used a twisted stitch 1x1 rib instead of the prettier (but, for me, less practical) edge. Other than that, I haven't found reason to make any changes. The yarn is Lorna's Laces in Watercolors, and I'm using KnitPicks circs for Magic Loop (easier to carry in my purse than DPNs, which I love).

One thing I have noticed--and it's not bad, just something to keep an eye on--is that this lace is very stretchy! The book "warns" about this, but I had no idea it would stretch as much as it does. I might tighten my stitches a bit or switch to a slightly smaller needle. (So many US #1 needles are actually US can either check the European mm size or use a needle sizer to find out if your's are true "1s" or not).

Monday, April 23, 2007

Uncharted Purls

I've turned the heel of my Merino Lace Sock. It's been a really great knit so far. The pattern is simple enough to memorize, but it still keeps me thinking with the three different lace stitches.


I did notice a problem after I turned the heel. The purl stitches that were in between each lace pattern were not on the instep chart.


At first I thought this was a design element, but it bothered me that the purl stitches weren't there to set off the lace. I really like that effect. I then noticed the picture in the book, and there are definitely purl stitches on the instep.

After Googling "Merino Lace Socks" + errata, I found this post on Manning Knits. Liz wrote me and said that she had heard from Interweave Knits, and they reported that the chart was correct in the original magazine, but it had the error in the Favorite Socks book. The second printing of the book corrects this, but I noticed that the books in both LYSs I visited yesterday had this error.

If you do knit these socks, the error should be apparent to you and easy to fix. I just thought I'd point it out that you should do what you expect to do on the instep :)


Socks progress

Here's my current progress on Priscilla's Dream socks. I found the short row toe to be a tad bit too wide, so I frogged back and made a star toe of three points Nancy Bush's Vintage Socks book.

Retro Rib Finished.

Retro Rib

Knit out of hand-dyed zitron sock yarn for my son (which is why they are significantly too big for me).
72 stitches on 2,5 mm rosewood double points.


Sunday, April 22, 2007

FO: Waving Lace

I had no idea how popular these were until after I got them done...I totally understand why though! Such a great knit. I am new to the KAL and finished these awhile ago but thought I would post here. These were knit with Cherry Tree Hill color Indian Summer. I think the Uptown Boot Socks will be my next knit from the book. It sure is hard to choose though! They are all so great! More pics and info on the blog (april 6th).

Hidden Passion

I finished weaving in the ends of the Hidden Passion socks yesterday. I cannot describe how much I adore these socks. The yarn is too scrumptious for words and the pattern is so much fun.

When I first posted my progress on these, someone commented that she really wanted to try them, but thought the construction might be a bit too much. Don't be intimidated by how differently these are knit from other socks. If you can pick up gusset stitches from a heel flap and do p2tog and s1 k1 psso, you can complete these socks. The top of the foot is knit with a chain selvedge like a heel flap. Then a short row toe is completed. Next you knit the sole flat and connect to the top of the foot by picking up the chain selvedge stitches and either k2tog or s1 k1 psso.

I have cast on the Elegant Rib socks and will post progress on those once I have enough on the needles to make a post worthwhile.


Retro Rib

Knit from hand dyed sock yarn (my 16 year old son who wanted to choose his own colors for his socks), I started Retro rib this weekend. I managed to finish the first sock on the flight from Tel Aviv to Zurich and started the second. On the train from Zurich to Heidelberg I was able to knit well past the heel and into the forever rounds of the foot. Did I mention that he has size 12 US feet?

The pattern is great, the really stretchy is importatant since I was unable to measure around his foot and had to guess at the number of stitches. Now, as long as I don't run out of yarn on the second sock.


Thursday, April 19, 2007

"Anniversary Socks" by Nancy Bush

I wanted to share this beginning stage photo of the "Anniversary Socks" by Nancy Bush. I don't think many folks have posted about this design. It is very enjoyable indeed! I did have to make a chart of the stitch pattern - as it was written out. Funny, a year ago, I would have preferred the written format. Now I am a total chart enthusiast!

I am using the seemingly popular "Louet Gems Pearl" yarn for these socks. It is a first for me. I certainly like the feel of the yarn, but question it's duability. Time will tell - I am sure.

So - I leave you with a word of encouragement... give these socks a try. I really like designs that have a different stitch pattern on the front vs the back. Nancy Bush seeems to have several of these to her credit. She is one of my favorite designers!!

Wednesday, April 18, 2007

Merino Lace Socks

I've started another pair of socks! This is the Merino Lace Sock. I haven't seen many people working on this pattern, and I though it needed some attention.

More pictures and details about the yarn can be found on my blog.


Sunday, April 15, 2007

Finished Flame Wave Socks

Got my 1st socks finished awhile ago. I knitted Flame Wave Socks, but unfortunately I read instructions ..well, badly. So my increases ain't almost invisible but very much visible. But both socks are alike with those holes, so it's okey. I learned a lesson about reading those pattern instructions accurately.
Sorry, this time no photo. Just 'cause I didn't know how to pack those (sorry!). You can see my chocolat brown socks in my blog(http//, I blogged them 3.4. I just started Undulating Rib Socks, and this time I'll do my homework better..

Saturday, April 14, 2007

Gauge revisited & with pictures

Many thanks to lori, a technical editor for IK, who told me the following:

"The gauge stated in the book is correct and not a mistake. I measured it myself from the actual socks shown in the photograph. I'm a technical editor for Interweave Knits and worked on this pattern when it first appeared in the magazine back in 2003.

There are a couple of reasons why Priscilla Gibson-Roberts was able to achieve 7 sts per inch with the yarn shown. First, she is a very tight knitter and produces some of the firmest socks I've encountered. She can get up to 12 sts per inch on a US size 1 or 2 needle!

Second, althought the original yarn, Classic Elite's Waterspun, had a recommended light worsted gauge, the yarn itself was very puffy with a lot of air space, so it could be squished down more than a conventional, robust worsted in order to pack more sts into an inch.

The combination of dense gauge and squishable yarn in the original socks was heavenly, but Waterspun has sadly been discontinued. If you look up the yarn specs, you'll see that Waterspun contained 138 yards in 50 grams, which is very lightly-spun indeed for a worsted, but a pretty common yardage for DK weight yarn. So if you can't find a substitute light worsted that's puffy and airy enough – the key words here are "lightly spun" -- the next best thing would be to try a DK weight yarn.

Priscilla Gibson-Roberts used Dale's Tiur (a DK at 125 yds/50 grams) worked at 7 sts per inch for her Caspian Sea Socks that are currently offered free on the Interweave web site. I'm making a pair of those for myself in Tiur right now, and am getting 7 sts per inch. The knitting is tighter than I'm used to, and the fabric is pretty thick, but it's do-able."

I realize that by now you all might be tired of hearing of my E.E. footlets, so I promise this is my last post on the subject. Especially because... I finished one of them.

Ignore the setting; it's raining outside and the only way to get decent light in my dump of a house is the back porch. I'll post more pictures and thoughts (mostly on my admiration for Priscilla's designs) on my blog

Friday, April 13, 2007

A Mongrel Pair

I don't even have the book yet, but after seeing all of your great socks I was anxious to start a pair. I looked in my back issues and found these two patterns. but couldn't decide between Go with the Flow or Waving Lace. I cast on with some Fleece Artist in multiple pinks and bronze and started with the ribbing from the Go with the Flow. After three repeats of the lace pattern, I decided that this yarn wasn't right for the pattern. I liked the ribbed look of both parts, though, so rather than frog the sock I started knitting the Waving Lace leg pattern. I think it might just work. This picture is terrible, but I'd appreciate any comments.


My Waving Lace Socks

Looks like this is a popular pattern :)

This is the first pair of socks that I've knit from the book. I've already made marks and notes all over the place on which other one's I want to make, and for whom.

Here's a preview pic - full deets are on my blog -

Another pair of Waving Lace Socks...

There should be someone keeping tabs - which design is the most popular from this book? My money would go on "Waving Lace Socks" by Evelyn A. Clark. It is a very nice, enjoyable, easy pattern - and certainly deserves all of the attention it is getting!

These socks were made from Lisa Souza's "Sock!" yarn - "Gingerpeach" being the colorway. I knit them on 2.25mm Pony Pearl DPNS. Pretty much my usual combination of yarn/needles. In my comfort zone with these.


binding off the dream socks

I'm totally confused by the instruction to pass the front stitch over. Can anyone help?


Cable and Rib Socks

I just finished ONE of the Cable and Rib Socks and LOVE the way it turned out...

This sock MAY OR MAY NOT have it's mate knit by me as I first made it with the intention of giving it to my Sock Swap Pal and in this swap, we knit one sock and then send the yarn and pattern to our pal for them to knit the other.

PATTERN: Based on Cable Rib Socks by Erica Alexander from Interweave Knits’ Favorite Socks Book - adjusted size of cable and rib and modified when I changed the needles.

YARN: Hello Yarn Fat Sock Yarn in Surface colorway

NEEDLES: Size 1 for the foot and Size 2 for the heel and cuff

TIME to COMPLETE: Started Easter weekend while traveling, finished 6 days later, Friday morning, April 13, 2007

NOTES: If I were to do the sock over again, I would knit the heel in Size 1 needles — but overall, I think the sock turned out very well. I based the sock on the Cable Rib Socks and modified the size of the rib and cables to accomadate the colorway of the yarn. I enjoy the pooling of the colors in the foot and the striping at the cuff.

You can read more details of this at my blog.

This weekend is to be a weekend of FOs! I plan to finish a few more items to add to my FOs page. Wish me luck!! LOL!

Newbie Alert! Newbie Alert! Newbie Alert!

Hi all, I am so excited to join the Favorite Socks Knitalong. There are so many wonderful patterns in this book, I just don't know which one to knit first. I signed up to do Sockaplooza 4 and my soon to be named pal will probably end up with one of the wonderful socks from this great book! I look forward to posting my progress pictures. Check out my blog for what I have been up to.
I finished the Flame Wave pattern socks using stretchy Cascade Fixation cotton and elastic yarn in color 5104. The socks are very comfortable and stretch nicely to fit the leg without binding at the top. I made these for my mother who has diabetes. She can't wear socks that are tight, so this pattern and yarn is perfect. This is the first time I knitted socks using a lacy pattern. It takes longer, but the results are worth it.

Thursday, April 12, 2007

Gauge question

I would like to make the Eastern European Footlets and I'm wondering whether there is a problem with the suggested gauge. The book suggests "substitute the lightly spun WORSTED weight yarn" (my emphasis), on size 4 needles, and then says that the gauge should be 7 stitches / in.

Now, I am not a knitting expert by any means, but how on Earth does anyone get such a gauge with worsted yarn, on such thick needles? Various sources say that worsted yarn has about 10-12 wpi, so even if you pack the yarn as tightly as possible you still couldn't get 7 stitches per inch (as one stitch has two strands).

This is why I think there is a mistake in the beginning instructions. Any other opinions?

Waving Lace

I have now finished two patterns from the new book. These are the Waving Lace socks which were very enjoyable and easy to knit. The yarn is Knitpicks Essential in burgandy, knit with 2.5mm (US 1) Knitpicks circular needles. This is the first time I used Essential yarn which I found to be very soft with no splitting. Now, on to something new!

Wednesday, April 11, 2007

Hi! :D

I finally got my book last week (after drooling over it at every yarn shop I happened on) and cast on for Priscilla's Dream Socks yesterday. They are going SO FAST in midweight Socks that Rock yarn (in Scottish Highlands). This is my first time using DPNs--I'm using the Lantern Moon Socks Stix, and at first I was hating how slow they were compared to my addis, but now I really love how they feel in my hands.

I tend to wear out the heel of my socks, so I decided to do a heel flap I guess these were more "inspired" by her design than a literal following, since I also cast on a different number of stitches. I loved the look of the ribbed leg and stockinette instep,'s funny that I would never have thought to knit that, since most of my regular store-bought socks are exactly that design!

Tuesday, April 10, 2007

First Sock

I chose the Embossed Leaves socks as the first to knit from this book. I have to say it is one of the best patterns I've ever knit. It is well written, and so addictive that it worked up very quickly! I used Sisu by Sandness Garn and 2.5mm needles. I love how the toe completes the leaf, and the twisted rib cuff is my new favourite!

So MANY Choices

Ok, so what I've actually done is to go through the entire book and copy the patterns that I JUST HAVE to do know what I'm talking about here. Ok, so...well....there are 10 patterns now in my workbook.....and still others in the book that are calling to me and I know I'll have to add in there somewhere.
I've already done the Waving Lace and the Lace Cuff. So next up I decided to do the Retro Rib. What's not to love about this sock.....I appologise for the photo. I didn't realize until this morning that the color was washed out by the lamp. The yarn is Lorna's Lace in a beautiful blue. I've done the straight pattern so far, no variations.
Now, I just couldn't stand it. I had to CO yet another sock. This time it's Priscilla's Dream Socks. The yarn on this one is Trekking which I picked up at my LYS simply because I have not used it before and loved the color.

It's just a simple rib sock but I've made a variation to this one. I'm not in love with her heel so I've changed it to the sl 1, k1 heel that I like so much better.

HHmmm......wonder if I have enough needles to co yet another sock.........................

Monday, April 9, 2007

Ribs, Hugs & Kisses

I finished the Retro Rib socks for my hubby. I made these with Cider Moon Haiku (50% wool/50% silk). Someone asked me about how silk socks hold up, but I don't remember if it was here or another knitalong. Hubby took the socks with him on a business trip this week, so I'll find out how they hold up when he returns this weekend and post an update :o)

I did make a modification to the pattern. I did these toe up using a short row garter stitch toe and heel.

I've started on my second pair of socks from the book now. I'm using more of the Haiku for these. Realized after I started on the leg pattern that I messed up the heel, but I refuse to redo them. The sock fits fine, and the slip stitch flap (instead of the eye of partridge I was supposed to use) looks fine with the sock on. Just looks a tad strange when not on lol.

Here's an angled shot of the pattern on the top of the foot and leg. These socks are constructed so much differently than any others I've made. It's making for a very interesting project!


First sock progress

I started with Priscilla's Dream Socks, mainly because I had some Duet Sock Yarn that was calling out to be knit and also because I like the way short row heels look with a contrasting color. This is DK weight yarn, using size 2 (3.0) needles, 56 stitches. I will be using the solid brown color for the toe. I hope to post a picture of the finished sock soon!


Diagonal Cross Rib

I had to start another sock and this Peacock CTH has been calling to me since my bud Darlene gave it to me for my birthday. I decided to see how this muti color yarn would knit up in the Diagonal Cross Rib pattern. I have to say I LIKE IT. What do you think? The book shows it in a solid color, but it is so hard for me to knit socks (and complete them) in solid :)

Sunday, April 8, 2007


I finished the Undulating Rib Socks today. They are wonderful and ohhhhh so soft! Go to my blog to see details :)

This might perhaps amuse

I will add to the gallery of Waving Lace socks with a very special pair:

These were knit three years ago, when the pattern came out in the magazine. They were my first pair of socks that actually fit well, and they have been wearing strong all these years.

Now, you might wonder, why is half of one sock black? Let's just say I was a college student, and I was poor, so I was buying sock yarn on eBay. I had no idea that one 50g skein does not make a pair of socks... so I improvised :)

Saturday, April 7, 2007

Embossed Leaves Done!

I had more time to knit these last few weeks and am earlier than usual getting my socks done. These are the embossed leaves socks from the new Interweave book "Favorite Socks". I loved knitting these socks and they were such a fast knit that they really only took a weekend to knit each sock. They are a little bigger than I normally knit socks, but I imagine that once they are washed, they will shrink up some.

April 7, 2007 005

Yarn: Yarn Pirate in Malamute (merino/tencel blend)
Source: the Loopy Ewe
Modifications: None
I do have more details about the construction of these socks on my blog.

Thank you for the sympathy...

Thank you all for leaving comments with suggestions and for your sympathy for the delay in receiving the book from If I had bought it myself, I would have cancelled the order by now and used a different online retailer. However, a good friend of mine ordered it from my wishlist as a present for me, so there is nothing I can do but wait....

I love the socks I see so far and am already debating which ones to knit for myself....

In the meantime, I wish everyone a Happy Easter!

Friday, April 6, 2007

Almost Completed Undulating Rib

I'm on the foot of sock two of the Undulating Rib knit with Lisa Souza's "mars quake" colorway of BFL yarn. Knitting on size 0 (i knit very loose). Last year on vacation I knit the waving lace pattern in red. I'm loving this book :)
I finally received the book! It looks fun. After I finish up a couple of things (like taxes) I will get started. Any advice on where to start? I have knit 2 pair of 'plain' socks, top down on 2 circulars with self-patterning yarn. LaDeb

Finally - the book!

Being overseas does have its drawbacks when it comes to access to US published books. Mine finally arrived yesterday from I had checked, but they always get English language in 1-2 months later than actual publication [allowing for the really slow boat I guess].

Looking at the socks, I am contemplating just starting at the beginning and knitting my way through. There are a couple of the ankle high ones which I might skip, unless one of my teens sees them and stakes a claim for more socks.

Is anyone else just going through the book in order?

Proseknitic in Heidelberg

Embossed Leaves

Hi everyone. My first pair for this KAL are the embossed leaves socks. I am usually a very quick sock knitter but these have taken me some time. Started them on 1st April and here's how far I have got. (I have knitted another pair of socks and half way up the back of a man's aran sweater in the same time!) I think part of the reason I am taking longer than usual is that I really like this pattern and I am savouring the knitting. After every round I have to have a look at just how lovely the sock is!

Thursday, April 5, 2007

Toe-Up Cable Rib Socks

It's my first post here and I'm showing off the Cable Rib Socks designed by Erica Alexander. I'm doing my usual "fly by the seat of my pants" adaptation to make these toe-up, two-at-a-time, on two circular needles:

They are for my husband so the coloring is pretty bland. :) The yarn is Regia 6 Tweed in color #53.

Happy knitting!

Favorite Socks!!

Just received a copy of Favorite Socks yesterday.....I think I am going to try the Undulated Waves socks.....but not positive yet! Tonni was working on this pattern while we took a yarn crawl this past weekend....VERY pretty socks!!! Looking forward to seeing everyone's choices!!

Tuesday, April 3, 2007

Started "Waving Lace" Sock tonight

I would like your opinion. The pattern says that it makes a finished size of 7" circumference. I'm assuming that is before it is stretched. I have a 9.25" circumference so even though I got gauge of 9 st/in on 2.5mm I thought I should go up a size or 2. I did the scallop edging using 3.25mm and it will be ok if they are a little big because I have enough yarn to make these pretty long (and I have good size calves). I guess what I need to know is how much to these stretch around the ball of the foot? Did anyone have to go down in gauge (i.e. up in needle size) to get them to fit a circumference about my size?
Thanks! And I have really enjoyed seeing everyone's socks!

Waving Lace

I have been very inspired by the Waving Lace pattern which some of you have shown us. The pattern is a fun knit and very easily memorized. I am using Knitpicks Essential yarn which is nice to the touch but the final verdict will come after the socks are washed. I hope the yarn does not "pill".

Monday, April 2, 2007

Retro Ribs Done

I finished the Retro Rib socks I was knitting for my daughter today. Her birthday is on the 11th but I will gift them to her on the 7th when we celebrate her big day (she will be 17). I knit them in Cherry Tree Hill-Lime. She likes the feet of her socks to be knit plain so I didn't carry the pattern down the foot. I did 15 repeats on the leg.

Starting first pair . . .

After lots of equivocation, I decided to start with Priscilla's Dream Socks. I wanted to knit up a ball of yarn with a lot of varegation in it (would tell you all what it is, but I seem to have already lost the ball band), so I decided on Priscilla's Dream Socks. I was worried that the yarn would obscure any kind of elaborate stitch pattern. I haven't gotten to the heel of the first sock yet, which I gather is where the special techniques of the sock begin, but so far everything's going along swimmingly.

Hopefully my next post will contain a picture as well as the information from that elusive ball band!

Still waiting for the book....

Well, I put the book on my wishlist at (living in Spain this makes it the closest with the least postage). And having a wonderful friend, she bought it for me. But says the book will not be available until May 2007. So, I am sitting here, watching all of you knit these amazing socks... and twiddle my thumbs rather impatiently, to say the least! Not exactly the way I envisioned this. Has anyone else had the same experience with any other amazon site? Or is the only one? Well.. if nothing happens in the next week or so, maybe I'll have to send amazon a rather scathing email!!!! In the meantime, I will gaze at lovely pictures of already finished socks........."sigh"!

Sunday, April 1, 2007

Elegant Ribbed Stockings

Ann Budd's Elegant Ribbed Stockings without the Ribbed Cable

Pattern: Elegant Ribbed Stockings by Ann budd from Favorite Socks by Interweave
Needles: Britany Double Pointed Needles in the following sizes: US 5, 6, and 7
Cast On : March 20th 2007
Completed: March 30th, 2007
Yarn: by Yarntini - Make it Work and Carry On! for Project Runway fans
Mary Janes: by Crocs purchased today March 30th at my local Nordstrom

I love my stockings and I heart this yarn! Super soft, cushy and tightly spun at the same time. Simply amazing! My tootsies are pleased:)

I followed the pattern exactly with one exception. I did not do the cables. I felt the variegated colors in the yarn would have made it hard to see the detail. Therefore I opted for a simple stockinette.

Waving Lace Sock FO

I've been off doing a bit of lace knitting on the VLT KAL. With that project finished I picked up my WLS again as we headed out the door for vacation. As my husband drove, I managed to finish it the socks.

Waving Lace Sock
Yarn: Cherry Tree Hill
Color: Cherry
Needles: size 1 & 2
Variation: I started out on the size 2 needle for the Scalloped Edging and the first repeat of the lace pattern, then I switched to size 1 for the rest of the sock. Also, I didn't do the 'tbl' as indicated, I did the straight knit.

I love these socks, and the CTH yarn that I hadn't used before. I think these have become my new 'favorite' socks. I've got several more sock patterns picked out to do. Right now I'm on another bit of lace but will have to CO another sock soon. Anyone else feel there just isn't enough time in your day too?